Podcasts

Diane Moss: So shifting from practicing law to hosting a parental guidance podcast may seem like a big change. What drew you to launching Ground Control? It was initially, and it still is a newsletter, right? And then, you developed your podcast. What was the impetus? And what made you feel like, "Okay?" 

Carol Sutton Lewis: So the beauty of being as old as I am is that you get to tell a very long story in a very short period of time. So I'm going to skip over the last, what, 30 some odd years. So I started out practicing law. I went to Stanford Law School, and I dove into a practice with a firm in Washington DC. And I was in the litigation department. And I'll have to say that my enthusiasm for the practice of law dimmed fairly early in my career. 

And as soon as I was able, I shifted away from the legal practice to work in entertainment. I worked for HBO, and then, a lot of interesting, this is a podcast about pivots, a lot of pivoting happened, in that I had some unexpected turns. I got married, I moved to Chicago, my husband's work moved him there. And I decided, at the time, since I was still doing legal type work and I was interested in trying something new, so we moved to Chicago. But I managed to continue pursuing my English major passion in Chicago and my interest in entertainment by starting a production and development company in Chicago. When work required us to move back to New York and I started having children, I still kept my hand in entertainment, but the world of parenting was new, as it is to everyone. But I really kind of dove into the world of parenting for a couple of reasons. 

I grew up really happily in a great family. My parents were loving and kind. I had two siblings. And what I noticed growing up was that my parents loved us to death, really embraced us, but parented me a little differently than they parented at least one of my brothers. I loved school. I did well in school. Education was key to them. And so, I was an easier child to parent. And my older brother didn't like school at all. He wanted to be an artist, and his path was one that my parents found more difficult to follow. And so, over the course of his life, I could see, even from a young age, that there were some sort of parenting efforts that they were making that weren't really landing well. And so, fast forward to when I started having children, I realized that, for all the parents listening, as soon as a baby is in your life, you suddenly realize a lot of things about yourself you never did before. 

You think about how you were parented. You think about, where does whatever instinct you have come from? And I realized that I didn't feel very comfortable with my parenting skills, particularly as pertaining to a boy. My first child was a girl, then I had a boy soon thereafter. And I felt a little wobbly on the boy stuff, because I had seen examples of what didn't work so well and particularly African American Black boy. I just felt like I needed to dive in, and I needed to research. And with all the statistics about boys, we live in New York City, I wanted to just really make sure, legal training, get as researched as possible as I could about all of the pathways to go, all the different parenting perspectives. And having seen an example of loving very smart people take steps, which in retrospect, were just not the right steps, I knew that having degrees didn't mean you were going to be a good parent. 

They were fine parents, but having a degree didn't ensure that you always knew the best thing to do. So that's a bit of a long way of saying that I ended up spending so much time focused on this parenting stuff and realizing that all the stuff that I was researching took a lot of time to do so, and all my friends that were busy, heads down working in their careers, with their children and their families, just did not have time to unearth all of this stuff. And so, I started, it's more of a blog, I started a blog just putting the information out there, talking to people who had expertise. And then, I moved into the podcast. 

Diane Moss:  So well, I'll just add that I came across Ground Control Parenting myself. I saw that you were a mother of three children. I have three boys. But when I saw kind of some taglines relevant to boys, I friended you on LinkedIn, and I was like, "All right, I'm subscribing to this. This will have hopefully some information, that is good and supportive, as you journey through parenting." Well, what's behind the name, Ground Control Parenting? How did you come up with the name? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Yeah, Ground Control Parenting, I get that a lot. It's really simple. I came up in the parenting era where people were really concerned about helicopter parenting. We still are, but the concept that you hover over your child to make sure you're okay. Well, I don't believe in that, and I understand the instinct, for sure, but I don't believe in that. And maybe because I understand the instinct, I wanted to be sure that I didn't do that. 

So if we're going to stay with the aviation metaphor, I figured, rather than be a helicopter parent, I thought parents should be on the tarmac, part of that ground control crew, readying all the little planes to take off on their own. So I really thought, "What am I finding in my research? And what makes me feel more confident as a parent?" And that is feeling like I've covered the bases, I know who I am, and I know the kinds of things that can help children. And so, if an army of us can stay on the ground, pouring the stuff in, while they're still on the ground and then, watch them take off. So the hence, Ground Control Parenting. 

Diane Moss: I love the metaphor. It's great. 

Megan Monson: Yeah, me too. It's so relatable, and I think that probably resonates with a lot of people. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Just the control part scares some people, nowadays, but it's not controlling your child, it's actually controlling your parenting. It's more of self-control versus anything else. 

Megan Monson: So Carol, you touched on that your drive and love of research really helped you, when you were starting out, with launching Ground Control Parenting. Are there any other aspects, from what you learned as a practicing attorney, that help you in what you're doing now? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Absolutely. And actually, this is a great question to think about, because frankly, because my time as a practicing lawyer, which relatively short, I hadn't really thought about this. But as I think about it, a lot of what I learned in law school and a lot of my practice really helped me. Well, first of all, as I said, I was a litigator, so I drafted a lot of interrogatories. And a lot of what I do now on my podcast and that I did when I was interviewing people for the blog is think about questions to ask, that are going to elicit a certain kind of information that I'm looking for. 

So just like any good lawyer, I don't ask a lot of questions that I don't think I know somewhat of the answer to. And in the interest of creating a helpful conversation, I kind of imagine, before I begin, an arc of the conversation. And so, having the skillset of interrogatory drafting and attention to detail, and all the things that went into my litigation work, has been really, really helpful now. But similarly, when you have someone on the witness stand, you start with the question that you prepared, but you also have to be prepared to take the conversation, take the discussion, in any way that it goes. And so, if you have a witness and they start talking about things that you hadn't prepared for, but you could use it, you definitely want to go in that direction. So it's really been a lot more helpful. 

And the public speaking part and the comfort with public speaking, despite the limited amount of time I actually spent as a practicing lawyer, I have absolutely no regrets about going to law school. And I still very highly value my legal training. 

Diane Moss: There's so many careers from which legal training can launch other careers, right? So I think some of the skill sets that you take away, even if you just go to law school and then, go into business consulting or even into a more creative aspect of professional practice, it really does develop solid skills that are transferable. So we know also that events and people in our lives can be very impactful on career journeys. Are there major influences in your life, either people or experiences, that have been particularly impactful for you? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Again, a very good question, which I'm going to ask for a little liberty in answering, because it takes us down a more somber road, but it'll be brief, and it explains a lot. So one of the things that really colored my law school and legal practice experience is that, unexpectedly and quite tragically, on the morning of my law school graduation, my father had a heart attack, not in my graduation, but the very morning of. He survived it, but it was very traumatic. We were at Stanford, and one good thing is that, if you're going to be sick at your child's graduation, let it at least be at a world-renowned hospital. So he survived it. But most unfortunately, about a month later, he had a second heart attack, and he passed away, right before my bar exam. I say that because my father and I were very, very close, as I said, he was a lawyer, he was a judge, he was a businessman. And understandably, that profoundly impacted my perspective on the profession that I was about to jump into. 

So that made my entry into the legal profession and the legal practice far more difficult, far more difficult, than it would've been. And I have to say though, with hindsight, that it was, I can't regard that episode in my life as a blessing, but it was an interesting turn of events, with respect to my own career, because I can acknowledge that that happenstance was able to accelerate my realization that I didn't have the requisite passion for a lifetime career in the law, which frankly would've been harder to get to with my father in the law and very proud of me in that profession. 

And that the best work, my realization, the best work would come from the things I was more passionate about. The greatest impact was my father, in all of this, in all senses of it, in the sense that he led me to the law, as much as he tried not to, losing him then really impacted my practice. And actually, he was a wonderful father, and he really informed me as to what the great qualities of parenting and, frankly also, some qualities that I thought could be improved upon. So suffice it to say that his sort of imprint is all over my career, not, I'm sure, in the way that he would've wanted or expected, but it really did make a big impact. 

Megan Monson: And I think it's great that, when you're able to take a tragedy and use that as a moment of self-reflection, as you're starting out in your legal career, and realizing that, while you enjoy it, life is short, and so, trying to shift gears and find something that really you're passionate about and turning it into a lifetime of meaningful work is very impressive and inspirational. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Well, in my family, all my lawyers in my family, they all ended up doing very different things other than law, so that I could easily take a page from them anyway. But I really do appreciate that question, because I hadn't really reflected recently on how much he impacted the work that I do now. 

Megan Monson: So shifting gears a little bit, we know that our successes and missteps can help guide us, are there any important professional lessons that have stood out to you in your mind that you can share with our listeners? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Here are two things that, if I could talk to my younger self, if I could talk to younger lawyers, as I am, I would say, I spent too much time worrying about not having the typical career, rather than focusing on what kind of contributions I could make over the course of my career. I came up in an era where we were few women in the class. At that point, law school was very much heavily weighted towards men. We appeared at the law firms in our little man-tailored suits and bow ties. 

We definitely were sort of breaking through, pioneering. There weren't many women partners. And even though I was clear, pretty early on, that becoming a part of a law firm was not my aspiration, that kind of feeling that "I've got to make some great mark on the world, I'm supposed to be doing something, I'm not following this track. What track should I follow?" really kind of plagued me for a while. And I ultimately got some really great advice, and I will credit my husband for this, as I was fretting over a career move, he was saying, "Stop focusing on where you think you're supposed to fit in and start focusing on what needs that you can fill, what's missing that you can add." And I thought that was really helpful. I started to think... That's actually what led me towards a parenting thing, because I realized that, whenever I would talk with my professional friends about life, about work, invariably, if we had children, the conversation would always flow back to our concerns about, were we doing the right things and were we spending enough time? 

The concern about how we were shaping our children was really one of the things we always talked about. And I thought, "Well, if I pair all this work that I've done in this area already and the knowledge that there are people out there, like me, who want to know this, and people who don't have time to find out the top five tips you can use to help stimulate your kids' mind after school," all the things that I was really focused on, "then if I could marry the two, then I could hopefully do something interesting and fulfill both a passion and a need." So that was the first one. Okay, the second one, it's shorter. And this, I got from one of my children. My family's been really good on this. So my son, my youngest son, Drew, I was at a point with my work, I'd started the podcast stuff and I was thinking about how much I should invest, both time-wise and money-wise, frankly, in this business. 

And this was relatively recently, children were all out of the house or effectively out of the house. So I was really just trying to think about, how much courage did I have to do this? And he had two words which resonate for me always. He said, "Ma, back yourself." And basically, he's saying, "Invest in yourself. You know what you can do. Figure out what you do, what you really like to do. It's where you see yourself shining, lean into those skills and plot your course to success accordingly." And in other words, what he didn't say is the follow-up is like, "If you don't back yourself, who's going to back you?" And that doesn't mean boasting. It doesn't mean so much self-talk that you're obsessed with it. It just means I wish that I had the courage and the insight to know that I could back myself a lot earlier. 

Megan Monson: I think that's really powerful and meaningful advice. Something I know that we talk about, very frequently, in our Women's Initiative Network at the firm, especially for the junior women, is that it's very hard to get over the imposter syndrome and see that you have value and focus on all the things you could bring to the table. And sometimes hearing that from somebody else, that really you can support yourself, back yourself, or take yourself to where you want to and deserve to be, is huge. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Well, lawyers, we're really good at giving advice. We are very good. We can back a lot of other people. We explain to people why they need to be backed. We can tell them how great we're going to help make their lives, but if we can just take a beat and turn that ability to advise onto ourselves, it would save a lot of angst and get us where we're going a little more quickly. 

Diane Moss: Finding our own fit and being comfortable there. Another thing I wanted to talk about, and we discuss this in our women's initiative group as well, is I'm going to rephrase it from work-life balance to life balance. And I phrasing it that way, basically because I listened to your podcast with Ursula Burns, who was the former CEO at Xerox, and she had some very interesting comments on the question that women frequently get about or focus on in terms of work-life balance. And I was wondering if you could discuss a little bit about your view, your advice, and some of the things that Ms. Burns had to say. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: I appreciate you listening to that podcast. That was a lot of fun. And Ursula had so many pearls of wisdom. She's a great leader, and she was great to talk to about parenting. She's really passionate about that. And so, you're right, Ursula said... Well, I asked the question about the work-life balance, because so many people want to know how people do it. 

And she's like, she basically said, "This work-life balance, the concept, I don't understand that. That suggests there are two different things and you're trying to figure out which of each you do." She's like, "You have to do both. It's life, it's life balance." And so, she went on to say that she even gets a little annoyed, interestingly, when young women ask her this question, because she said, "Back in the day, when there was the traditional mode of not working mothers was rampant, you understood that, as women moved into the workforce, in later life, they were trying to figure out how to balance everything. But these days," as she said, "men and women are sitting next to another in all these classrooms, men and women are preparing for their careers at the same rate, doing the same things." And as she said, "Why are you asking me this question? You should be asking your partner this question." 

There's an opportunity now, for men and women, women to women partners, whomever is partnering, men and men, whatever the partnership looks like, there's an opportunity to have the discussions early on about, "How is this going to work and who's going to do what?" And if you decide to have children and you both think you will, how is it going to work? Because as Ursula and I said in the podcast, somebody's got to raise the children. It's a wonderful thing. It has to happen though. You cannot have two people, who are head down, focused on their career, blinders on, and then, magically have a family that raises itself. That's the cold hard truth. The difference between now and previous eras that both members of the team, of the partnership, are equally charged with how to figure that out. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: So Ursula was great. I've had many podcast conversations with many this obviously, and it's funny, one of the things I noticed in talking to these women CEOs and women leaders, to a one, when you talk about CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, they all had children. They were all married actually with children. And one might think that the path to the CEO of a Fortune 500 company would be made much more easy if you're single or if you're married with no children. But each of them talked about what the parenting skillset brought to their work. And I always ask that question, rather than asking sort of about balance, I tend to ask people, "What about parenting makes you a better professional? And what about being a professional makes you a better parent?" 

And everyone talked about how each aspect of their life worked together to make them better leaders. And as Ros Brewer, the former CEO of Walmart, said, "Basically, this is what Black women do. We work." And Ursula said this as well, in the Black community, mothers were always working, to some degree. Economically, it was a necessity. So there wasn't a lot of luxury of, "Should I work?" It's sort of, "How do I work and take care of my children?" And so, it's interesting, I say all that, certainly so it can be done. One of the things many of the women talk about is how valuable it is to have a partner that is a true partner in this. Because as I said, two people, head down, blinders on, killing it at work, it's very difficult to raise a family with both people that way at the same time. Generally, it's a tag team. 

Somebody has to sort of take a step away for a minute, so the other person can keep their head down. And that's the kind of conversation that you have to talk about. Now, thankfully, men are involved in that, if it's a male-female partnership. And I'll stay with men just for the purposes of this, because in the past, men have not been as able or willing to have these conversations. But everyone has a more enlightened perspective on the importance of taking the time to spend with the children. Men are taking more paternity leave, and these are the kind of conversations that younger families need to have, so that they can really sort it out. Truth be told, regardless of how much planning you do ahead of time, you actually don't know exactly what's going to happen until you're there with the children and you're in the crisis. 

But to the extent that you have the opportunity to have the conversations ahead of time with your partner about how you think it'll go or how you both agree it should go, it just makes life much more easy. And all the women that I spoke with really talk about that. I'll say one other quick thing though, that Keisha Lance Bottoms, who's the former Mayor of Atlanta, said to me in a podcast, which really resonated for me as well, that, notwithstanding women's ability to do a lot and people's ability to do a lot, it's really important that, she said this in the context of why she decided not to run for reelection for the Mayor of Atlanta, even though she was leading in the polls and everyone expected her to run, she said, "It's really important for us to protect our peace, in order to be able to the best we can in all of our roles." 

And frankly, when she was thinking about a second run, she'd run through the pandemic and George Floyd and all this, lot of pressure on her four years in office, she was having trouble protecting her peace. The work was really getting to her. And I love that phrase, because I think it applies so clearly to parenting, that it's really important, as we focus on the wellbeing of our children, that we also protect our peace as parents and make sure that we are as calm, cool, and collected as we can be, as we approach whatever issues we have with our kids. 

Diane Moss: Absolutely. And I thought it was so empowering that Ursula encouraged women today to create a new model and that we need to allow men to do what we expect women to do. And it's kind of a new time, a new era. The old model, which was pretty much created by men, needs to be changed and updated. And I think we're headed in that direction. But I do think, again, all of these stresses in life have to be balanced, with making sure that you maintain your center. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: So can I add a little something that I think a lot about when I think about this? And it could be a little controversial, and that is that, and I'll stick with men and women for the purpose of this concept, yes, we definitely have to, in a male-female relationship, with all of the stereotypes that have come into the relationship from our past, who, from eras' past, it's really important that women focus on making sure that these conversations are had. But as women, we also need to make sure we have these conversations with ourselves. I'll speak from my own experience, and I had a little bit more of a traditional setup, because I had more time to focus on the kids when they were young. 

And my husband was, he was the one with the head down, blinders on. And I was really busy and working with the kids, but I had agreed that my focus was going to be on them. And frankly, I relish that. I want to take care of all the education stuff. I felt very comfortable in being in full control of these aspects of my children's lives. And when he wanted to and was able to sort of hop in there, I have to say, it took a minute for me to be able to step back and to be able to give the room for that. And so, there is tendency, one may find an instinct to sort of want to, back to the control in Ground Control Parenting, control the circumstance, not your kids, but the circumstance, because you've got the answers. And the other thing is it's a longer conversation about the sharing of roles, because we have to think about, what are we willing to give up, in terms of the roles that are sort of cemented in our minds, as well as what do we expect our partners to give up? 

We're asking, and again, back to the male-female model, as women, we're asking men to potentially go outside of the historic comfort zone, let's put it that way, and take full responsibility for household chores, take full responsibility for childcare, be an equal partner in this. But we also have to ask ourselves, what are we willing to step away from, that fairytale, that Cinderella, that rescue, that Prince Charming stuff? Hopefully, everybody that's listening has been fully evolved and has none of that. But just in case there are a few of you who haven't quite gotten to that level of evolution, it's really important to just be honest with yourself. The whole Ground Control Parenting, even though this is a parenting focus, parenting podcast, parenting blog, my principle concern are the grownups. I love the children, I want us to help our kids, but I really think that how you parent comes from the way you were parented, the way you grew up, the way you look at life. 

And the really important thing is just to acknowledge all that stuff. You're not going to be able to work it all out in a conversation, but at least take a beat and figure out where you're coming from and whether it makes sense and whether you have to shift it. Talk about pivoting. If you have to pivot a bit away from your kind of fast held beliefs and how things should go. It's not as simple as just getting your partner to do more of the housework. It's a little deeper than that. So I'm eager to learn about this evolution. I'm happy to see it come. It's just I want to just remind everybody that it's not quite as check the box as we might want it to be. 

Diane Moss: And that there are layers to this process. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Exactly. 

Megan Monson: And some of it, you're right, it's having the conversation, but it's also looking inwards on ourselves and trying to take a step back and be a little bit less controlling. And for women, I know, for myself, that's a little bit more challenging. 

Diane Moss: So Carol, I need to know, when you do let go a bit, and good things can come from that, the relationship of your partner with the children, their respect grows for the role you have played and the responsibilities that you have had. I talked to one CEO, c-suite CEO, and she said she thought it was very important for men to take at least two weeks to a month off from work after a baby arrives, so that they can experience everything that a woman experiences, save obviously the other things that only a woman could do, but just to run through that whole experience, so that they have a better appreciation versus coming home, everything's as it is, and not really understanding what goes on at home while they're at work. Everybody has to kind of understand everybody's responsibilities, roles, and things like that. So I thought that was great advice as well. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, those two weeks to a month at home gets the partner closer, it doesn't get them there, but it's very useful and important to start. 

Megan Monson: So Carol, you've done so much important work. I know we've talked a lot about some of it so far. What do you view as your legacy? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Ooh, legacy. At the end of my runway, to stick with my aviation metaphor, I'd hope that I have helped parents think more conscientiously and confidently about their parenting skills and that they know when and how to get help with the skills when they need it. I also hope that I have helped parents of Black and brown children in particular feel empowered to raise curious, confident, and resilient children. And another piece of the legacy, which doesn't fully relate to parenting, but because another passion of mine is art, I'm hoping that I've helped everyone understand and appreciate the importance of both education and art in the world. 

I've talked to several... I'm vice chair of the Studio Museum in Harlem. I grew up in New York City, and with all the amazing museums around, they were my afterschool and summer places to visit. And thanks to my mother who was a public school teacher and definitely used New York City as her summer camp, and I've had several podcast guests talk to me about art and the importance of children being exposed to art in early age, how it opens their mind, how it stimulates curiosity, and for particularly, if you're collecting African-American art, how if you're a parent of a Black or brown child, how vital it is for children to see themselves in artwork. So long answer for the legacy, but parenting, art, and education. 

Megan Monson: I love that. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Me too. 

Diane Moss: This discussion has been fantastic and thank you for sharing your perspective on these topics. 

Megan Monson: So Carol, tell us what's going on with your podcast now? Do you have a new season coming? And where can we find it? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Oh, well, thanks for asking. Yes. I am busily working on season five, which will be launching soon. And all of my seasons are available on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, Spreaker, wherever you find your podcasts. I also have a website where my blog lives, which is www.GroundControlParenting.com. Oh, and I should say, the name of the podcast is Ground Control Parenting with Carol Sutton Lewis. 

Diane Moss: Wonderful. Any final words, wisdom, for the other strong female professionals out there? 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Well, a couple. I will say, again, back yourselves as the strong female professionals that you are. I'd also say, looking back, particularly that it's really important to embrace all the aspects of your life. It's not, as Ursula said, it's not work-life, as there's a little slash in the middle. It's all life. And don't be afraid to break old molds and create new models. And importantly, remember that, with respect to all things, but especially with respect to parenting, don't forget to focus on the joy. 

Diane Moss: Wonderful. Carol, thank you again for joining us today. I'm sure listeners have found your insight and perspective very useful. This has really been another inspirational and thought-provoking discussion. Thank you again. 

Carol Sutton Lewis: Thank you so much. This was great. I really enjoyed it. 

Diane Moss: It's been such a pleasure having you on. 

Megan Monson: Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Women's Initiative Network: Real Talk. We'll see you next time.  

Amanda Cipriano: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Please subscribe to our podcast series at lowenstein.com/podcasts or find us on iTunes, Spotify, Pandora, Google Podcasts, and SoundCloud. Lowenstein Sandler podcast series is presented by Lowenstein Sandler and cannot be copied or rebroadcast without consent. The information provided is intended for a general audience. It is not legal advice or substitute for the advice of counsel. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. The content reflects the personal views and opinions of the participants. No attorney client relationship is being created by this podcast and all rights are reserved.